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Learn What WATCHMEN Creator Alan Moore Thinks Is America’s Best Television Show Ever!!

Yeah, Quint, that EW link goes to your e-mail. by DivisionPost	Jul 19th, 2008 01:01:32 AM
Might wanna fix that.
alan moore would make a good talkbacker by soup74	Jul 19th, 2008 01:03:04 AM
he bitches with the best of 'em. superb writer though.
Now the link by Napoleon Park	Jul 19th, 2008 01:07:16 AM
goes to Herc's e-mail. Odd.
Since when is Moore... by rabbittrick	Jul 19th, 2008 01:09:06 AM
...a whiny political correct cop? Really? The guy who wrote the dirty comic book about fairy tale gals is upset that a book that takes the viewpoint of an ancient culture expresses elements of political incorrectness? Wow.
Never saw The Wire by Underdogthe3rd	Jul 19th, 2008 01:12:54 AM
Should I? Its more like: a)24, b)NYPD, c)Law & Order?
Seriously, like Moore... by chiefpapa	Jul 19th, 2008 01:18:22 AM
should shut the fuck up. Sick of his whining and complaining. Like dude, do what Miller did and get behind the friggin' camera and direct a movie u deem worthy. Oh, and Watchmen/Killing Joke kicks ass.
Underdogthe3rd... by Triceratops on Fire	Jul 19th, 2008 01:18:37 AM
It's more like a miniseries. Or a novel. Unfortunately the best analogy escapes me right now but it certainly isn't defined as a cop show. Oh, and Moore sounds like a grumpy old man. Who complains of a movie that they've never seen?
haha, Underdogthe3rd by wash	Jul 19th, 2008 01:18:59 AM
That's like asking if Gigli is like Citizen Kane.
I don't think that 300 was homophobic. by DerLanghaarige	Jul 19th, 2008 01:24:37 AM
But damn, it was stupid! (And yes, it was racist, but well...that's what Spartans were, so I can get over it.)
rabbittrick- very well put. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 01:26:58 AM
I thought we would have all seen through the silliness of the Identity Politics revolution of Political Correctness run amok by now. I guess Moore hasn't gotten the memo. Strange, since one of South Park's redeeming qualities is that it occasionally skewers political correctness with blistering satire rarely seen in American pop culture.
dogphart, I'm surprised at you. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 01:28:14 AM
Go back to your football and your big-gulps and your date-rape, please. Nerds are talking.
300 by offensivename	Jul 19th, 2008 01:29:31 AM
Say what you will about 300, but it was a beautiful film visually and I'm always willing to give beautiful films a chance.
was it homophobic? Or just homoerotic? by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 01:32:33 AM
It's an honest question, I only saw it once. Was there anything in the film that was explicitly against homos? Did any of the spartans call eachother 'queer' or anything? If not, you could arguably make the case that it was remarkably queer-positive. A bunch of oily naked dudes take on the entire known world and conquer because of their undying man-love for one another. I thought it was super gay, but not homophobic. I could be wrong, though.
Alan Moore is rapidly becoming Harlan Ellison. by GrantChastain	Jul 19th, 2008 01:33:43 AM
Odd how that works. The guy spends the better part of his career remaining silent on the trends and tendencies of his own medium, and then chooses now to rail on Frank Miller over a book that's over 15 years old? I'd think if I were Moore I might do better to start with targets more deserving of derision and then work my way up to Miller. Certainly there are enough knuckleheads in this biz that Miller, a guy who by all reports is a fairly good guy, shouldn't head off Moore's Shit List.
I think a lot of folks just didn't understand the style of it by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 01:37:23 AM
It's Greek theater. It's supposed to look like it takes place on a stage, with battle scenes taking place behind scrims, and elaborate set pieces. All the "bad CGI, it looked fake" arguments seemed a little out of place, for once, since the backgrounds were stylized, modern, technological versions of set paintings. Same thing with the performances, story and dialogue. Its GREEK THEATER. It's supposed to be completely over the top, loud, stylized and fantastic. Strange that all these fanboys who are totally willing to suspend their disbelief when it comes to mutants, aliens, zombies, what have you, balk at a mythical story about an army.
Thank god for Alan Moore. by Onyx390	Jul 19th, 2008 01:37:53 AM
I'm glad that a credible source can back me up on this one. Ever since I heard that 300 was coming out, I couldn't give a shit. I sat and read through the novel. It sucks, along with a lot of what Miller has done. But god-dammit if The Dark Knight Returns wasn't brilliant.
GrantChastain by offensivename	Jul 19th, 2008 01:40:57 AM
I don't think he was necessarily attacking Miller. He can admit to not liking one of his books without loathing the guy or anything. Although it seems like I remember him having words about Miller previously. Were the two of them friends and then they had a falling out at some point or am I making that up?
Homophobia in 300 by Bass Ackwards	Jul 19th, 2008 01:45:18 AM
There's a scene in the movie where the Athenians are ridiculed as "boy-lovers." Agree with Moore though, 300 the book sucked (though I actually found the movie, full of the same innaccuracies and silliness, passably entertaining in movie form, go figure), most of what Miller has done post DKR is pretty terrible actually.
Alan Moore knows the score... by Hudson Cock	Jul 19th, 2008 01:46:02 AM
RIFFS!!! Yeah, can ya dig it!!!! Did he have his name removed from the film? Anyone...? Whassup wit dat?
Moore is of course correct. The Wire is unmatched. by G100	Jul 19th, 2008 01:48:07 AM
As David Simon recently said in a BBC interview when asked whether he was disregarding the casual viewer. "Fuck the casual viewer." They won't get it and he doesn't expect them to. This also raises the remote possibility of a dream project. Some have spoken of for years. Top 10 done by David Simon. Tell me that wouldn't be 100 varieties of awesomeness!
Ok, ok, I made mind by Underdogthe3rd	Jul 19th, 2008 01:48:23 AM
"The Wire" (and Alan Moore BTW) is too high maintenance for me. I pass.
I bet Moore isn't as much of an asshole as it seems. by ebonic_plague	Jul 19th, 2008 01:50:17 AM
I mean, if I was a crazy, rich old snake worshipping bastard, and every half-ass entertainment reporter or blogger kept interrupting my snake worship by calling me up to ask me what I thought about other peoples' weak attempts to cash in on the stuff I wrote 20 years ago and what I thought about pop culture in general, I'd probably give some prick-like answers too. But he is right, though; The Wire is the best thing ever televised.
He must have given his permission to be in the Simpsons by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 01:53:55 AM
Right? How crotchety can he really be? That was the funniest episode of the Simpsons since the goddamn 20th century, incidentally.
Underdogthe3rd by ebonic_plague	Jul 19th, 2008 01:54:38 AM
Enjoy your Law & Orders guest starring Omar and Avon's sister and occasionally someone like Ziggy or Rhonda Pearlman, and your 300 with evil McNulty.
I really loved Watchmen but, by claytron5000	Jul 19th, 2008 01:57:40 AM
this interview and every other interview I've read makes him seem like quite a douche. Arrogance, combined with a reclusive nature always bothers me. I hate it when artists look at their fame as "burden.
Funnily Enough... by TroutMaskReplicant	Jul 19th, 2008 01:58:36 AM
300 Wasn't over the top enough for me. Plus I was surprised by how needlessly pretentious it was. Consider the flowing elegiac leaves of corn lifted from Gladiator. Or the fact that they found the need to go on about the Spartan love for freedom and democracy, when the Spartans were as charmless as the Nazis. They could have just made them into badasses with no politics beyond fighting. And I didn't even consider it that violent. Imagine if Takashi Miike had made it? Ah well, I'm easily as difficult to please and as ornery as Moore. I just don't have comic book classics under my belt. Fudge.
Huh. Thanks, Bass Ackwards. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 01:59:03 AM
That does complicate things. Shit. The weird thing is some people believe that the Spartans themselves were 'boy lovers', there were a completely different set of values and sexual taboos back then, homo love was not considered the social stigma that it is in our Judeo-Christian modern world. Some historians have argued that the Spartans were actually encouraged to fuck one another, in order to strengthen the bond of brotherhood and coalesce the army as a unit. Strange, from our perspective, but it makes an odd kind of sense. It's too bad that the filmmakers felt it necessary to throw that line in. Or did it come from Miller? Sad.
This will spark the round #1,000,000 of SP vs FG by Xiphos_2	Jul 19th, 2008 02:00:57 AM
As far as The Spartans being Homophobic they viewed the Athenians as effete, weak, boy loving urban degenerates. Where as the the viewed themselves as moral clean living country folk. Now, is 300 homophobic? Nope, not by a long shot, in fact it's as gay as Paris in Springtime. In fact I think its on a continual loop in places like Vics Pump room, The Log Cabin and the Man Hole.
Also, the are rumored to have gone into battle buck naked. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:01:05 AM
no leathery little loincloths for them.
Some guy blasted Miller for all that in the letter column... by ebonic_plague	Jul 19th, 2008 02:02:39 AM
...of 300, before it was collected into the trade paperback. Mostly it was about the "boy lover" thing, that it was hypocritical for the Spartans to condemn the Athenians for homosexuality when they practiced the same thing, and Miller responded that he was just trying for historical accuracy, that the Spartans WOULD have been hypocritical pricks to the Athenians. I think Moore is kind of sensitive to all that sexual politics stuff anyway so he just rips on the comic for that line in addition to the more obvious racism and simplistic storytelling but it's a grumpy cheap shot for sure.
Hey Xiphos_2, any relation to Xiphos? by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:03:47 AM
And- just because it gets played in gay establishments, don't mean it isn't homophobic. One of my gay friends absolutely loves Top Gun, watches it at least once or twice a year, and has since it came out, but he considers that movie one of the most unrepentantly homophobic films in recent history. Go figure.
Whoops, sorry samsquanch by Bass Ackwards	Jul 19th, 2008 02:04:18 AM
That line did come from Miller, not the filmmakers.
god fuck it I love Alan Moore by therobcat	Jul 19th, 2008 02:04:31 AM
The man can say anything he wants. He elevates the comic medium to new heights with every project and is right to criticize 300 for it's questionable content. Frank Miller's done some great work, but he's fallen into a lot of traps in his later stuff that's just... weird. That new Batman he's doing is pretty much unreadable. That said, I have high hopes for Watchmen and it's looking good from everything we've seen so far.
oh... by therobcat	Jul 19th, 2008 02:05:09 AM
...and he's right about The Fucking Wire as well.
that's too bad, ebonic. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:11:31 AM
It sounds like a cheap excuse. It's far more likely that he put it in there so that all the homophobic fanboys would be able to justify liking the story, without getting too uncomfortable. "See, they're not queer! They just called the Athenians fags! Your masculinity is intact."
Samsquanch by Xiphos_2	Jul 19th, 2008 02:12:28 AM
Spartans never went into batttle naked nor did any Greek hopolite warrior. They all were clad similarly in a cuirass of either Lamalar or Bronze, a bronze helmet, heavy oxhide sandals and bronze leg armor that protected the long bones of the lower leg. Also they wore a leather reinforced kilt to protect the upper thigh against punture wounds. All Hopolite warriors carried a 8 foot spear with a point on either end, a 3 foot in diameter oaken shield shod with bronze and for close quarter combat the mighty Xiphos sword. Which was really just a large knife. if anybody went into combat naked they would last about 2 seconds in the melee of death that is the hall mark of close quarter combat.
Did He Say He's Interested In Making TV? by TroutMaskReplicant	Jul 19th, 2008 02:13:48 AM
I got the sense, reading Watchmen, that maybe Moore is so very pissed off by the idea of film adaptations because he's frustrated by not being able to direct them himself. Perhaps he's thinking anything Miller can do, he can do better?
I defer to your knowledge, Xi. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:15:27 AM
I don't remember where I heard that, I can't back it up. I thought it sounded far-fetched too, but the rational was supposed to be a kind of psychological mind-fuck, in order to scare the living shit out of their opponents. That's almost believable, but I think you're probably correct.
Samsquanch by Xiphos_2	Jul 19th, 2008 02:17:20 AM
Xiphos and Xiphos _2 are the same. Top Gun has to be on the most openly pro gay movis ever made. Remember the scene with everbody oiled up and playing volley ball, while the song playing with the boys is blaring over the long, slow shots of sweaty man torso. Plus they were all in the Navy, which means they are all at the very least Bi-curious.
Also Top Gun Is So Gay. by TroutMaskReplicant	Jul 19th, 2008 02:19:09 AM
In a Gay way. The scene where Tom Cruise and Val Kilmer stare each other down has better sexual chemistry than an orgy of romantic comedies. And the female lead was one of the less attractive actors, strangely. It was directed by Tony Scott who (as Moriarty recently pointed out) directed a lesbian nipple sucking sequence featuring Susan Sarandon and Catherine Deneuve. So maybe he decided to spice up the subtext?
Welcome back Xiphos. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:20:12 AM
I thought we weren't going to see your ugly mug around here for awhile? Are you back overseas?
Samsquanch by Xiphos_2	Jul 19th, 2008 02:23:30 AM
Yep I'm over the seas and far away.
Stay safe buddy. by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:26:09 AM
It's nice to have you around.
The Wire is truly the best ever by ls420	Jul 19th, 2008 02:28:47 AM
glad to see it get some praise
who needs an emmy nom....moore has spoken by bacci40	Jul 19th, 2008 02:30:27 AM
can someone give him a call and tell him to turn the nominating committee into snakes? and moores complaints with 300 have to do with miller, not snyder...and i love allen, but werent the spartans homophobes and racists? shoot, they did apparently engage in homosexuality, but the decried it among the greeks...and it wasnt like they embraced anyone who wasnt greek or spartan into their community...i was shocked that moore even watched anything from tv...but was glad to see that he is a fan of both the wire and southpark...can someone send him the venture bros? i would love to hear his take on that series
Bacci40 by Xiphos_2	Jul 19th, 2008 02:42:25 AM
Spartans weren't gay and decried homosexuality as unmanly and ridiculed other Greek city states that openly practiced homosexuality as effete and weak. The thing peoiple here are missing, is that if you were a Spartan, or a Athenian, or from Thebes or hell even the back water of Macedonia, the city state you were from was the end all and be all of your out look. You automatically assumed you were better then all the other city states. You'll have to realize that the concept of a "nation" of Greeks didn't exist, your city was it. Which led to a whole lot of problems when the Persians got a bit proddy. Also, could we please stop applying modern ethical and moral stances to places that have not existed for nearly 2000 years. Thanks
Alan Moore is an artist. Frank Miller wrote All-Star Batman. by Baked	Jul 19th, 2008 02:45:32 AM
You can guess who I'm listening to.
Samsquanch by Xiphos_2	Jul 19th, 2008 02:47:56 AM
Thanks man!
My Alan Moore impression..... by redfist	Jul 19th, 2008 03:01:35 AM
Through a heavy beard of cigarette and beer breath bitch, gripe, complain, they stold my money, fucking LXG, stupid fanboy, lesibian fairy, fuck you Frank Miller, for vendetta my nutsack, fucking marvel, cunts, top shelf who, 300 got me off, fucking batman, sob buy me another pint you cunt.
he looks like that one guy... by TheDudeintheShadows	Jul 19th, 2008 03:18:08 AM
jesus
I wonder if he digs LOST... by stabbim	Jul 19th, 2008 03:21:15 AM
...considering how much of Watchmen it has in its DNA.
Snuff Box by Shoegeezer	Jul 19th, 2008 04:47:25 AM
Nice to see him giving this a shout out, the best comedy series about alcoholic hangmen ever! It was a great and odd show (not to mention hilarious) that the BBC virtually disowned in favour of much blander comedy. Took years to come out on DVD.
Moore defines "precious" by JackRabbitSlim	Jul 19th, 2008 05:21:16 AM
One of the bylaws of Hollywood, or anything with an independent-minded editor, is every artist must be willing to kill their babies and this "artist" has shown utterly no inclination of a willingness to do that. And, even if he could get a script greenlit, which i doubt, there is no way that prima donna could make a television series. Television and film are by definition collaborative works and he has show little ability to get along with the other children for the length of time and arduous effort it would take anything to go through the arduous process. The misanthrope is better off scribbling out his little funny books in his cave, basking in the near-fellative praise of certain talkbackers and sniveling about everyone else.
Moore is an idiot by Alientoast	Jul 19th, 2008 05:47:49 AM
Did you notice that he didnt even SEE 300? "Everything I heard or saw about the film", reads to me as, "I read some shit on Rotten Tomatoes and I saw half the trailer on a DVD". If you're gonna trash a director or a film, at least SEE the fucking movie. Besides, Frank Miller likes how his movies turn out (Sin City, 300). Moore is the one who sells off his properties then cries that they turned out like pieces of festering crap.
Hmm, maybe I should watch The Wire. by Flim Springfield	Jul 19th, 2008 05:52:32 AM

being from Baltimore by BALTIMOREJACK	Jul 19th, 2008 05:54:17 AM
it's nice to see the man knows his television. Fuck the Emmy's; never has a television show been screwed more.
JackRabbitSlim: Not to defend Moore... by Prof. Pop-Cult	Jul 19th, 2008 05:55:10 AM
But I recall reading several years ago him saying that he wasn't fond of The Killing Joke. In hindsight, he thought he had been too gimmicky and melodramatic with that story. (I am paraphrasing from memory, but I swear it was something to that effect. It surprised me, since TKJ is one of my most favorite graphic novels, up there with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns.) That said, I have a feeling that Zach Snyder's Watchmen will be THE best film translation of an Alan Moore graphic novel... so much so that Moore will either remain silent when asked for his opinion or very reluctantly admit it.
Speaking of the Wire.... by emeraldboy	Jul 19th, 2008 05:58:52 AM
For some screwed up reason. Nobody on this side of the pond ie the uk and ireland has been showing this show much respect and by that I mean, if the show is so great, then why have all the Major tv companies over here not been showing it. I think it is only available on on Channel 5. if at all. The only season that seem to be available on DVD is season 4. Tg4 in ireland is showing the wire. but at a time when most people, wont know its on and many people dont watch TG4 in Ireland. None of the other tv companies have bought it. there was feature on the guy who wrote it on the culture show. Uk tv companies seem to regard shows like this as minority programmes and think well seeing as that is the case we will put it a show like this on at a time and place when hardly one will watch it and then we can quietly bury it on "lack of interest grounds." I dont know bar media people of anyone who watches this show. it simply cannot be found on any tv station over here and if anyone can good luck.
Another thing about The Killing Joke... by Prof. Pop-Cult	Jul 19th, 2008 06:07:37 AM
Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One redefined the character, and influenced the way Batman has been depicted in all the movies and last two animated series. But it was Alan Moore who redefined The Joker. The Joker in The Dark Knight movie is definitely inspired by Moore's The Killing Joke. So even if Moore doesn't see eye-to-eye creatively with Miller, they are intrinsically tied to one another in defining the modern-day Batman mythos. But when you consider thing in that light, they're like Yin-Yang to one another: Miller = The Batman, Moore = The Joker
If Moore thinks THE WIRE is great ... by rightarm4Rosario	Jul 19th, 2008 06:32:14 AM
Wait till he gets a load of this great new show, JOURNEYMA- um - nah - forget it.
Zach Snyder's 300 is by palewook	Jul 19th, 2008 06:58:37 AM
visually visceral. And stunning eye pornography on the big screen. Can't wait for his vision of Watchmen. If anyone hates 300, go watch dancing with the stars or lifetime instead.
It's cool to say "full-stop" instead of "period"... by FlickaPoo	Jul 19th, 2008 07:10:45 AM
...as an American, I wonder if I could get away with that and not sound like Madonna?....I'm gonna try it for a day or two...just see how it goes...
homophobic? try homophilic. by Dr. Sid Schaefer	Jul 19th, 2008 07:33:21 AM
i loved sara silverman's line about the title, "300." she said it was the number, on a scale of one to ten, of how gay it was.
Moore is right by felt pelt	Jul 19th, 2008 08:02:18 AM
The apparent political subtext of the film, that Spartans loved freedom, and were fighting demonic Middle Easterners for it, made my stomach turn, especially because it was being bought wholesale by American teenagers. But like Moore, although I read a lot about the movie, I've never sat through all of it, because of that. I love the Wire and Alan Moore is wonderful when being knowledgeable and critical, and he is here, at least in respect to the original novel.
Moore's mistake by RenoNevada2000	Jul 19th, 2008 08:16:12 AM
Moore makes the mistake of thinking that a piece's character or characters, in this case the Spartans who deride the Athenians for being "boy lovers", as speaking for the pieces author. I'm surprised that he would do such a thing, actually. Does he agree with every viewpoint espoused by a character he has written?
He's a hypocrite by Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 08:29:20 AM
The man categorically refuses to work for DC but he'll do an interview with EW who are owned by Time Warner, DCs parent company and are one of the biggest shills for DC comics out there. He comes out of the woodwork every time someone starts to make a movie based on one of his properties. We can now look forward to a year of Alan Moore's cranky interviews where he talks about how he refuses to have his name attached to any of the movies while at the same time reminding the general public that he's the co-creator of the property.
300 was and is stupid by alienindisguise	Jul 19th, 2008 08:42:00 AM
and having seen the Watchmen trailer it's gonna be the same thing..hey look it..slo mo every 5 seconds! Gay.
This just in...Alan Moore doesn't like stuff... by torpor_haze	Jul 19th, 2008 08:59:57 AM
spread the word. I respect the man for his accomplishments, but he's got a big head methinks.
Moore is Less by Bosch Fawstin	Jul 19th, 2008 09:03:43 AM
How unnatural for an alleged comic book writer to Not watch movies based on comics. It's a pose, a snooty one that does not allow him to give credit where it's due. It's not the first time this fool has brought charges of 'racism' to something that isn't.
I thought it'd be Family Guy by Iowa Snot Client	Jul 19th, 2008 09:10:33 AM
...settling the sucks/doesn't suck issue once and for all.
He's right about 300 by The Octagoner	Jul 19th, 2008 09:14:35 AM
And he's right about The Wire. Nothing on television has even come close. Ever.
I like Professor's analogy: Moore is The Joker; Miller is Bats by Jim Jam Bongs	Jul 19th, 2008 09:17:40 AM
Frank Miller is mostly an honorable type but prone to righteousness. He's also a gearhead when it comes to appreciating the art and craft of filmmaking. On the other hand, Moore simply seethes contempt and anger. But he's also very crafty and gifted, and he's earned a fearful kind of respect. He has no desire to learn about and utilize other technological forms of entertainment media. He would rather make the world burn instead.
Genius appreciates genius by I am_NOTREAL	Jul 19th, 2008 09:32:20 AM
Good to see. But I thought he and Miller were pals? At least they were when Moore wrote the intro to the DKR trade. Oh well.
I love Alan Moore... but... by I made Wilhelm Scream	Jul 19th, 2008 09:36:33 AM
Is it just me, or is he a paranoid fucker? I can't argue with his calling out 300 for homophobia, but werent there lines in Watchmen alluding to Veidt's possible Homosexuality, and Rorshachs suspician ofand aversion to it?
He's a crazy, spiteful man... by flickchick85	Jul 19th, 2008 09:36:53 AM
But he has good taste. Oh, and there's that genius thing, too.
Did they ask who his favorite Watchmen Baby was? by tonagan	Jul 19th, 2008 09:42:45 AM

Love Frank Miller's work, but.... by crazybubba	Jul 19th, 2008 09:44:26 AM
He's into Ayn Rand, whats up with that?
Sublimely Stupid by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 09:49:46 AM
What's wrong with that? Does everything have to be (quasi) intellectual, Al? I really think Alan Moore is a great comic book writer but I don't value his opinion very much.
300 was very faithfully stupid, Alan Moore by Mgmax	Jul 19th, 2008 09:52:47 AM
Sorry, that's the truth.
Who's calling comicon 'Creepy'? by Bosch Fawstin	Jul 19th, 2008 09:57:51 AM
Have you seen pictures of this creep?
Did anyone read the review???????? by crazybubba	Jul 19th, 2008 10:00:10 AM
Moore did not attack Frank Miller, he just had problems with 300. Don't jump to conclusions. Maybe he's implying something about Miller maybe he's not.
The Wire Greatest Show Ever by crazybubba	Jul 19th, 2008 10:01:59 AM

The Wire Greatest Show Ever by crazybubba	Jul 19th, 2008 10:02:14 AM

Xiphos_2 by bacci40	Jul 19th, 2008 10:09:04 AM
sparta decried homosexuality...but they did practice it...and why cant people allow moore to be bitter? if your employer screwed you out of millions in royalties and the rights to your creations, then heavily censored you...then like to you, you would be bitter too...watchmen is now rising to the top of the book charts, and miller doesnt get a dime for these renewed sales
by Jodet	Jul 19th, 2008 10:10:37 AM
Moore is a PC nitwit and a flaming hypocrit, but he's written one great book (Watchmen) and yes, he is dead on about 'The Wire'.
Funketeer...doing an interview makes him a hypocrite? by bacci40	Jul 19th, 2008 10:10:57 AM
no...accepting monies from ew for the interview would make him a hypocrite
Moore and Miller by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 10:11:18 AM
I think they used to be friendly, but seeing as how reclusive Moore is and how their paths have diverged so much, I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't so buddy-buddy anymore. The truth is, Alan Moore is annoying as hell but Miller's work has suffered a lot more in recent years. LoEG is fantastic, and Miller's stuff just gets more and more blockheaded. BTW, The Dark Knight Returns was by far the biggest event in changing comics back in the day, not Watchmen. Watchmen cemented the moment, but TDKR came first and was the phenomenon. Watchmen is very good but I think gets a lot of credit just for being "literary" and "dense". To me it's also a superhero story that uses very little of what makes superhero stories what they are, and as such isn't possibly the greatest (or whatever). I'd have to go with TDKR ... Even if it's more flawed than Watchmen, it has Batman riding a horse and great action, which is what superheroes are all about. Funny, because Miller could use a little more literary density of late!
You are retarded if you don't like The Wire by Judge Briggs	Jul 19th, 2008 10:16:15 AM
One of the best shows ever.
Yes, he's a hypocrite by Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 10:20:31 AM
He's working with the company he swore he'd never work with. He refused to work with Wildstorm once his contract ran out because DC bought them, how is putting money in Time Warner's wallet any different? He's a shameless self promoter and you fanboys fall for his "integrity" hook line and sinker.
Usage of the word PC by crazybubba	Jul 19th, 2008 10:22:06 AM
It makes me laugh how people throw the word PC around everytime someone expresses a critical opinion. Its not about being "PC" its about doing the right thing. I guess most of you have a problem with moore and find him annoying, but I think what he has to say is interesting and worth thinking about and debating.
Homophobic by sizzler	Jul 19th, 2008 10:26:20 AM
So is this where we are at as a society? Unless your movie is like an episode of Will & Grace its considered homophobic? BTW, the term homophobic is such bullshit. Do I crawl on the floor in a fetal position, rocking back and forth in fear if I see some homo's? The answer is no. Do I have a problem with that small group of people pushing their bullshit constantly in our faces? YES
Moore makes me laugh. by JackieJokeman	Jul 19th, 2008 10:30:27 AM
because anytime someone says "I havent and wouldn watch this or that but heres my opinion on it" you know that they have watched it several times. Like talkbackers that talk about how they havent watched The Real World since season one but the new group of kids must be douchebags.
Cranky old basterd by mascan42	Jul 19th, 2008 10:31:14 AM

The Wire... by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 10:31:28 AM
...is completely over-rated. Sorry, but someone had to say it. There is nothing new in The Wire other than the graphic content permitted by HBO. NOTHING. You may now flame away...
rabbittrick by jdb1972	Jul 19th, 2008 10:36:03 AM
Yes, Moore's a hypocrite. Big shock. His holy cows are not to be slaughtered (or even hinted at being touched), but he'll chop yours up with glee.
Alan Moore Owns by ThomasServo	Jul 19th, 2008 10:39:18 AM
I love it. Alan Moore truly is a genius. A brilliant, brilliant guy. But he criticizes "300" and everyone goes crazy on him. Look, I liked 300 a lot. I defended it from my friends. But it IS stupid. It's a stupid fucking movie. Spartans defending "freedom"? Hahaha! They were the original fascists! Stupid, stupid. What do you expect Alan Moore to think of it? Besides, if you had written League of Extraordinary Gentlemen- a meticulously researched series- and someone came along and made THAT shitty movie out of it, you'd be pissed at Hollywood, too.
Moore's right. by no-no	Jul 19th, 2008 10:53:19 AM
The Wire: great show. 300: stupid slo-mo homophobic & racist piece of crap (good white straight guys versus evil drag queen from middle east, come on!) Comicon = creepy? Of course.
Recluse my ass by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 11:09:19 AM
This guy may not get out much, but he's not afraid to pick up the phone. Alan more is just a cranky man, what can you say. He takes himself and his work wayyyyyy too seriously. And he's a kook.
Rutgersjaffo... by DanielKurland	Jul 19th, 2008 11:11:03 AM
I disagree heavily with you about The Wire and to reduce it to merely to graphic content makes me think yo haven't watched it all, and from the start. It's understandable if you didn't, as I can grasp some people not getting the show, but to fully appreciate it, you NEED to watch it all. For instance there's a scene in a gay bar where you only BRIEFLY see (and not even have the character talk or be important to the scene) a character. This is an immensely subtle way of telling you the character is gay, and it comletely changes the dynamic of the type of character he is. I've neven seen something so subtlely tell you a character is gay. The show is all about clever ways like that to reveal information.
Nobody asked but by nukethefridge	Jul 19th, 2008 11:14:39 AM
The Dark Knight strikes again is silly.
300 IS OVERRATED! by Darth_Kaos	Jul 19th, 2008 11:15:21 AM
Personally, I like Zach as a director. Don't forget he did the only decent remake this decade with 'Dawn Of The Dead'. Everything Mr. Moore said is correct about 300. I won't go into it, cause everyone has already touch on why. However, that 'Watchman' trailer was awesome! I've never read the Watchman, but I decided to do so because of it. Now that's never happened to me before with anything. I do think Frank Miller has racist intention with his material, and I do think he's starting to get a big head. But I have a feeling after the 'The Spirit' BOMBS!He's going to do one of two things. He's going to cry like a little baby and go back to making comics full-time. Or insist he and Robert Rodriguez make SIN CITY 2 to save his cred. MARK MY WORDS!
The Dark Knight Strikes Again by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 11:16:09 AM
I never even bought issue 3. I don't know how it ends and I don't care. God, the coloring was abysmal.
He only speaks the truth. by rbatty024	Jul 19th, 2008 11:17:03 AM
Why is Frank Miller the only comic book writer the mainstream knows about? Miller is hit and miss but Moore is genius through and through.
claytron5000, couldn't agree with you more by chiefpapa	Jul 19th, 2008 11:17:04 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love his body of work. But in the past few years, the dude's just gone off his mind. All he does is complain and bitch about things. Is it because he's just getting older, therefore more crankier. The dude is coming off like a cocky prick. From what I've heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Miller is generally perceived as nice guy and talks to fans as well. K, will give Moore a bit of credit though, the wire is really good.
Miller has been losing it recently. by rbatty024	Jul 19th, 2008 11:27:31 AM
All Star Batman and Robin is one of the worst comics out there. It's like the man went senile. And I'm a big defender of The Dark Knight Strikes again. I don't understand people who defend ASB&R.
He's so, so very cranky. Heh. by fiester	Jul 19th, 2008 11:40:06 AM
I suppose it's part of his charm. Though were I a network executive, I'd have to think long and hard before getting into bed on a project with a guy as capricious and moody as Moore is. Still, the way HBO is going, they may need to take a chance like that to ever get back to even half of their former prestige.
The Rivalry by fiester	Jul 19th, 2008 11:45:27 AM
Frank Miller did The Dark Knight Returns; Alan Moore did Watchmen. They are arguably the two most significant and influential comics since the invention of comics and basically came out at exactly the same time. I suppose it's natural they'd both hate one another. It doesn't diminish either achievement however.
Yes, The Dark Knight Strikes Again is shite. by fiester	Jul 19th, 2008 11:47:20 AM
Never been more disappointed in a comic ever.
For a different perspective on 300... by WS	Jul 19th, 2008 11:49:34 AM
I recommend tracking down Slovaj Zizek's essay "True Hollywood Left", (it's out there somewhere online). It's an interesting and, I think, accurate defense of the movie. The difference between Moore and Miller is that Moore is a post-modernist and Miller is a romanticist. We happen to live in post-modernist times which means that Moore is currently in fashion; but, I think it would be a mistake to value one over the other. As far as racism and sexism and homophobia go...that's a slippery slope and I guess I'd recommend tracking down Patton Oswalt's bit about watching The Searchers in an LA theater (it's on one of his comedy central specials)...and, if we're going to play that game, I guess we could start by noting that Moore has an interesting habit of allowing his heroines to be brutally beaten and nearly raped (Batgirl, Mina Harker, Evey, etc.) But, let's not play that game.
He's so negative & picky about everything by pokadoo	Jul 19th, 2008 11:50:31 AM
...I'm surprised he's not an AICN Talkbacker!ZING!!
darth_kaos by Dradis Contact	Jul 19th, 2008 11:58:05 AM
if by overrated you mean overproduced then yyes
Jeff Albertson by The Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 11:58:49 AM
I'm not sure what part of my post made you think I didn't know any of that already. He's still a hypocrite for doing an interview with EW which is part of the same corporate family as DC. The guy is a big cry baby who can't stand the fact that he signed a contract that gave DC the rights to his work until they went out of print. Why on Earth would DC stop printing V or Watchmen? And you call him a recluse? They guy comes out of the woodwork and does interviews with anyone who will listen any time a movie based on his work comes out. Go and read his complaints about the movies and then read something like LOTG or Lost Girls and tell me he isn't doing the same thing.
Frank Miller by The Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 12:10:51 PM
Actually, I've heard that Miller's next movie after The Spirit will be Hard Boiled. I don't get why people dump on Miller but give Moore a pass on all his craziness. I get why people don't like ASBAR but I don't think you can say it's a bad comic. Might not be your cup of tea or what you were expecting him to do, but it's good stuff for what it is. Miller doesn't believe in sacred cows and I can respect that. He's at a point in his career where he can do pretty much whatever he wants and what he wants to do is hard boiled crime. Moore is at the same point in his career and all he seems to want to do is complain. The fact is, neither one of them has created something based off an original idea and character in a long time. They both play around with archetypes but for Miller the last truly original thing he did was probably his work with Geoff Darrow or Dave Gibbons and for Moore it V and Watchmen (maybe From Hell but even that was based in historical fact). They're heydey was 20 years ago and there have been plenty of great comics created since then. I think you guys really need to choose some new people to worship because both these guys haven't been truly creative in a long time.
The Wire IS the best, Miller IS a hack by The Octagoner	Jul 19th, 2008 12:12:18 PM
Anybody who thinks it's only the graphic content HBO allows hasn't watched the series. It's the Great American Social Novel as TV. As for Frank Miller-- he hasn't written anything worth a damn in almost 20 years. And no, Moore is not a hypocrite for allowing EW to interview him. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here, which is syaing a lot.
ASBAR is a TERRIBLE comic, Funketeer by The Octagoner	Jul 19th, 2008 12:17:39 PM
I read the hardcover of the first 9 issues-- besides the bullshit characterizations and TOTAL LACK OF PLOT, the whole thing covers about 15 pages of story for 200 pages. It's ridiculously bad. Go back and look at the dialogue. That's shit writing. Miller's faux-hard-boiled-Mickey Spillane- wannabe dialogue is shit a 13 year old nerd with power fantasies would write. The last original thing Moore did was Watchmen? Are you fucking looney? How about inventing the ENTIRE ABC line of comic books? League of Extraordinary Gentleman? Promethea? Tom Strong? Top 10? Jesus Christ, EVERY one of those books is better than ANYTHING Miller's written since the mid-eighties. 'From Hell' was based on historical fact? You better try reading it again, or for the first time.
He ISN'T Cranky by ThomasServo	Jul 19th, 2008 12:18:05 PM
Well, maybe he is. But really, the only time he's ever interviewed it's always on the one topic he's cranky ABOUT. Hollywood. I'd bet if you were just hanging out with him talking about British literary history or something, he'd be brilliant conversation.
In defense of The Dark Knight Strikes Again... by rbatty024	Jul 19th, 2008 12:21:32 PM
I thought that comic was hilarious. Unlike ASB&R, which tries to be funny and fails every time, I actually laughed out loud while reading DKSA. I think it's a fine piece of political satire. There are problems with the book, such as Robin's unnecessary appearance, but overall it's a smart and fun book. The largest problem is that Miller billed it as a follow up to The Dark Knight Returns, which it wasn't. It should have been sold as taking place in the same universe he created, but with a different focus. A more accurate title would have been, "Frank Miller Plays in DC's Sandbox."
Re: The Dark Knight Strikes Again by fiester	Jul 19th, 2008 12:39:56 PM
I think the problem was it was not really about Batman but more about The Justice League and what had become of them all. It lacked the depth and seriousness of TDKR and had little focus. It real less like the epic reimagining we'd come to expect from TDKR and more like a crappy issue of What If?
You guys seem to think... by ebonic_plague	Jul 19th, 2008 12:44:55 PM
...that Moore somehow WANTS to be involved in film adaptations of his work, and he's just being a diva about it. Moore has repeatedly stated he thinks hollywood movies are just commercial drivel and wants nothing to do with them. I can't blame him, he's right, nothing they've adapted has even come close to his original works, it's like Stephen King x100, but instead of King, he doesn't even want them to use his name and won't take any money from the studios. He's right, though... how many times in these very talkbacks do we bitch about soulless hollywood cash-grab remakes and adaptations, and then Moore comes to the same conclusion to say "Fuck Hollywood," and so then he's a cranky, ungracious prick because he doesn't play along? Hypocrisy, thy name is talkback.
Spartan pre-battle ASSFUCKING removed by EvilWizardGlick	Jul 19th, 2008 12:46:55 PM
300 did remove the Spartan pre-battle assfucking. Worst was playing fast and loose with the history. After watching the History channel special on the 300 I was VERY let down by the movie. Really are we that simplistic these days that we can't even comprehend the complexities of History? Do we need every boiled down to me good they bad?
Moore is a fine writer by xsi kal	Jul 19th, 2008 12:47:46 PM
...but appears to otherwise be an entirely obnoxious, bitter, curmudgeonly human being. This just in! Moore hates !
ebonic_plague, yep by EvilWizardGlick	Jul 19th, 2008 12:48:24 PM
But the paid posters and snot nosed fanboys will ALWAYS be pro-Hollywood.
xsi kal, Most writers/artists are by EvilWizardGlick	Jul 19th, 2008 12:49:52 PM
Quite a few are real bastards. It goes with being creative. Regular people just can't make the links as fast. Or they are tedious.
See? The man is a genius by Aeghast	Jul 19th, 2008 12:50:14 PM
..Not only he writes excellent stuff.. but admires excellent stuff, like THE WIRE!
samsquanch - Simpsons by aversiontherapy2	Jul 19th, 2008 12:53:56 PM
Weren't those characters all voiced by their real-life counterparts? I remember looking at the credits and being amazed Moore had done something so pop culture as the Simpsons.
that Slavoj Zizek essay is here by felt pelt	Jul 19th, 2008 01:10:55 PM
http://www.lacan.com/zizhollyw ood.htm WS, I haven't seen 300, but isn't possible that a movie, released during a time when the U.S. seemed to be building up to unnecessary war with Iran, that the portrayed Persians as monsters, and the heroes talking about "freedom isn't free" was interpreted by millions of people, not as Zizek did, but as support for the aggressive U.S. policy towards Iran? And isn't it kind of shitty to support that policy and make what was interpreted as blood-pumping rally for it? I understand you're saying there's a different intent, and I should watch the film. But if it's just different politics, or apathy on Snyder's part (which is what I get from interviews), then, yeah, calling writers on racism and homophobia is a slippery slope, but it needs to be done in this case. On a unrelated note, I don't know how to paragraph break.
Hacks by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 01:19:23 PM
Some of you guys don't know what a hack is. It doesn't mean you're bad, it means you phone it in for a paycheck. Anyone who seriously think that's what Frank Miller is about is not paying attention. I'm not saying everything or anything he does is worthwhile, but he's obviously enthusiastic about what he does.
WS / Moore's heroines by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 01:22:32 PM
Good point - I never really put that together before, but it is notable.
300 is a little homophobic by danthemagnum	Jul 19th, 2008 01:24:59 PM
I do not think that he is referring to the men themselves, but to the line where Leonidas says: "See, rumor has it the Athenians have already turned you down, and if those philosophers and, uh, boy-lovers have found that kind of nerve, then..." He does kind of say it with disdain.
How is it that Alan Moore by Jed Black	Jul 19th, 2008 01:25:44 PM
Is still considered by anyone to be relevant? Seriously, go read Watchmen. When I was thirteen and read it for the first time that shit blew my mind, but it is dated as hell nowadays. Also, for being the Nerd New Testament, it sure has a lot of clunky writing. Alan Moore is a fucking HYPOCRITE who writes kiddie porn. One day I am going to write a Watchmen "re-imagining" and have Rorschach fucking and sucking everything he can get his lips around. Huurrmm...Schlorp!
300 as Propaganda for War with Iran by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 01:27:05 PM
It didn't work very well, did it? Seriously I think that is a ludicrous idea, no offense.
Re: The Wire by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:29:19 PM
Watched it. Was not as blown away by it as everybody else seems to be. I am not at all saying it isn't a great series, because it is/was. Just saying that I feel people lay a little too much praise on a series that really didn't bring a whole lot new to the table, but rather just combined elements which had already been utilized elsewhere and then took full advantage of the opportunities afforded it by a place on HBO. Again, damn fine series? You bet. As great and revolutionary as many seem to want to call it? Not in my opinion. And just by way of a friendly reminder, people are fully able to 'get' something without particularly caring for it. The two are not mutually exclusive. For example, I 'get' opera and yet I still don't care for it. Just saying...
Jed Black by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 01:29:58 PM
I wouldn't go as far as you did, but I do agree Watchmen is overrated and it's pretty damn clunky at times, mainly in the first few issues. I remember Alan Moore once saying he'd rather let his kid watch hardcore pornography than some corporate children's show. He's just an idiot sometimes, in service of his self-gratifying ethics.
And per Alan Moore... by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:30:38 PM
My favorite work of his, silly as some may think it is to say, is when he and Tottleben and Bisset were on Swamp Thing together. I still re-read the American Gothic storyline at least once a year. Good times, good times...
Re: From Hell by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:34:45 PM
From Hell was about as factually-based with regard to the Whitechappel murders as JFK was with regard to the events surrounding JFK's assassination...
NEWSFLASH: The word 'homophobia' has been misused for years. by Sick Fixx	Jul 19th, 2008 01:35:32 PM
In order for someone to be a homophobe, they would have to be hysterically frightened every time someone who was openly gay came around. The fact is, some people just aren't comfortable with the lifestyle or supportive of it. Even in 2008. Heterosexuals are here to stay too. Get used to THAT.
Good point, Sick... by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:38:15 PM
It's that whole hipster 'Everything is ok...except taking a stand not made popular on the Daily Show' mentality which has become so pervasive i America. At any rate, Will & Grace was a damn funny show...
"Heterosexuals are here to stay" by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 01:45:21 PM
So there! LOL - I'm rubber and you're glue by the way.
John Travolta called... by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:51:18 PM
...and he said that he and Tom Cruise are WAY offended by all of the homosexuality in today's America!
G100 by fivezero	Jul 19th, 2008 01:51:32 PM
"Top 10 done by David Simon." What the fuck is that?
Top 10 breakfast cereals of all time: by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:55:50 PM

by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 01:57:50 PM
1-Quisp (This is not even debatable) 2-Cap'n Crunch 3-Lucky Charms 4-Honeynut Cheeri-os 5-Cracklin Oat Bran (Seriously, it is might tasty!) 6-Honey Comb 7-Frosted Mini-Wheats 8-Peanut Butter Cap'n Crunch 9-Grape Nuts 10-Super Sugar Smacks/Golden Grahams (tie)
According to Moore: by fiester	Jul 19th, 2008 02:06:25 PM
Johnny Depp is slated to play Cap'n Crunch in Cap'n Crunch: The Movie.
Sick Fixx by BadMrWonka	Jul 19th, 2008 02:06:33 PM
homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals that's from the merriam-webster dictionary. (you're not, you know, saying your definition is better than websters are you?) but I do think it's missing something. I'm gonna add an alternate meaning: homophobia, (n): being uncomfortable enough with your own sexuality that you have to post about homophobia in a talkback to assure the world you're straight...
The real tragedy here... by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 02:11:09 PM
Is that 'homophobia' has somehow found its way into the dictionary. Give me a break. And I am still shocked that Alton Brown is straight. I really need to get my Gaydar checked...
stabbim by infinite_probability	Jul 19th, 2008 02:11:12 PM
"Lost" has "Watchmen" DNA? I know "Heroes" does, but how does "Lost"? And felt pelt, paragraph breaks are "< P >"
On a lighter and completely unrelated note... by rutgersjaffo	Jul 19th, 2008 02:14:22 PM
Rumer Willis. Ewww.....
rutgersjaffo by The Octagoner	Jul 19th, 2008 02:32:54 PM
Nope. The Wire's accomplishment is actually overlooked by a lot of people because it had no flash. But it's writing is the best writing ever on a television series, with the most realistic and complicated characters ever portrayed on series television. There's no other show that's employed its premise like a scalpel to open up the layers of civilized society, to show its interconnectedness (the fiduciary connection, for instance, between a state senator and a crackhead on a street corner). What other show has EVER shifted venue and characters as radically as The Wire did in its second and fourth seasons? None.
Rutgersjaffo... by ebonic_plague	Jul 19th, 2008 02:32:59 PM
You realize Walter B. is going to ride on the wing of a jet to your house and then kill you in a horribly violent but still somehow acceptable for PG-13 manner, dont' you?
I love Alan Moore's writing...can't stand the guy though by Dogmatic	Jul 19th, 2008 02:34:43 PM
I mean he is a free human being...if he doesnt wanna watch super-hero movies or even films based on his own stuff and he wants to call Comic Con attendees creepy...he has that right. But that doesnt mean he should exercise it....I mean...guy writes one of the best stories of all time...which HAS that title BECAUSE of the fans who herald it...and then fans finally get the film version of it that we have been wanting forever...and THIS guy doesnt even care to hear about the film much less watch it? I dunno....it just seems danged unappreciative to me.
I just dont see how a guy can write what he does by Dogmatic	Jul 19th, 2008 02:36:03 PM
and like he does and just doesnt give a rip about all the great superhero and comic based movies we are getting these days!!!
"Racist"? Not him too... by grungies	Jul 19th, 2008 02:51:27 PM
:( You'd think he could avoid that silly accusation.
Sizzler, Sick Fixx by samsquanch	Jul 19th, 2008 02:55:41 PM
Does it ever occur to either of you that you're just not very... well, that you're kind of... stupid?
It doesnt matter if Moore is right by Alientoast	Jul 19th, 2008 03:07:16 PM
He admitted he hasn't seen 300. He's the comic book equivalent of that Senator that wanted to ban Beavis and Butthead because he heard they were bad, yet he had never watched an episode before.
Moore's a crazy artist by zooch	Jul 19th, 2008 03:19:26 PM
He will never like what anybody does with his work
The Octagoner by The Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 03:26:34 PM
You need to learn a little bit more about comics and archetypes I think. The ABC line, while entertaining, was completely derivative (and intentionally so) of other material. Top 10=American cop TV. Tom Strong=Doc Savage. Promethia=Wonder Woman. LOEG? He's taking characters in the public domain and putting them together on a team. Every one of those books was his way of either directly or indirectly playing with other people's creations. Kind of like when someone makes a movie based on V or Watchmen or From Hell. And yes, From Hell is based in historical fact (based being the key word here). Jack the Ripper and many other characters in the book were real. I'm not kidding! Go look it up on Wikipedia or wherever else you find all your opinions.
The reason people say 300 is homophobic by The Octagoner	Jul 19th, 2008 03:27:03 PM
Is because Miller (and the movie) completely removed the ugly historical fact of all the Spartan boy-fucking that took place. Women were literally used as breeding animals, and men fucked their wards, who also partnered with them on the battlefield. Leaving shit like that out doesn't bother me, as who the fuck wants to see that? But there you go. I can't believe I'm agreeing with fucking Albertson, but Moore does rule, and Miller is a shit-stain on pop culture.
Here's really what bugs me about Moore by The Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 03:32:59 PM
Every movie based on his material so far, has been based on a project he CO-created with a very talented and deserving artist. Sure Moore lets them have his half of the royalty check (probably not as big as you all think it is since most of them are owned by DC) and then proceeds to spend 6 months pissing all over the movie. In some cases, those artists are involved in the creation of the movie and haven't distanced themselves from the adaptation of their work. Watchmen, From Hell and V For Vendetta wouldn't have been nearly as good as they are if it weren't for Dave Gibbons, Eddie Campbell, and David Lloyd and I think it's really disrespectful for him to behave the way he does every time Hollywood plays with his toys. The whole point of taking your name off a movie is so people don't associate it with your work and yet how can people NOT know that Alan Moore wrote the comic that Watchmen is based on when he grants an interview to an American entertainment magazine with a very large readership. The guy is a very savvy publicity hound and loves all the attention he gets from his rantings and ravings, no matter what his co-creators might think.
Felt Pelt by WS	Jul 19th, 2008 03:46:01 PM
thanks for the link...I think it's dangerous to judge movies by what other people might be thinking when they watch them...Also, I’m not saying you should watch the movie. You tried, you didn’t like it, you stopped. That’s fair. There’s other stuff for you out there. I’m saying that I feel there’s an aesthetic value to 300 (which I described to one of my friends as a kind of bizarre melding of an AIP biker film, Sam Fuller, and Fellini) that goes beyond Red state/Blue state antagonism. I think of movies as an art, and not so much as big op-ed columns.
American comics are really hurt by superheroes. by rbatty024	Jul 19th, 2008 04:04:56 PM
I enjoy some superhero comics, particularly Dini and Grant Morisson's runs on Detective Comics and Batman respectively, but there's a glut of them. Arguably this is because of the censorship of the 1950's. After the comic code the only acceptable subject was superheroes. Hopefully things are starting to turn around. Even the mainstream is starting to realize that comics are more than just superheroes. I can see how that market saturation can be frustrating to someone like Moore.
Funkateer by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 04:22:59 PM
Watchmen is also based on someone else's creation. As was Miracle Man. As was Swamp Thing. Etc. I don't think creating a brand new character is the be-all end-all but if you do, keep in mind a huge chunk of Moore's most celebrated stuff is based on something else.
Comics Code responsible for ubiquity of superheroes? by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 04:29:25 PM
Yes it's right there in Section 12: "No more Disney or Archie Comics shall be allowed!" etc
Thunderbolt Ross by Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 04:35:31 PM
Watchmen was originally supposed to use the old Charlton characters but didn't. The characters in Watchmen are original creations. Swamp Thing was a work for hire situation and a completely different set of circumstances than ABC where Moore had free reign to create whatever he wanted.
"Hello, may name is Alan Moore... by Darksider	Jul 19th, 2008 04:46:47 PM
and I'm a fucking hypocrite. I take other people's ideas and creations and use them at my whim. When someone else uses my work, they are all shit and I will have nothing to do with them." How is he going to like 300 if he's never even seen it? Did he even read Miller's version? Homophobic and racist? This from the guy who wrote League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? A book mostly about racism, rape and people saying "arse" a lot. HELLO?! The best thing he's ever written was Watchmen. The ending sucked ass and it was over 20 years ago. Didn't he write for SUPREME, the shitty Superman rip-off years later? That went well. I don't know why anyone gives a shit what he says anymore. Miller wrote fucking DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and is not a prick. Where is THAT movie? Moore likes THE WIRE? Surprise! That's like asking most people if they like beer.
fivezero by G100	Jul 19th, 2008 04:47:35 PM
Top 10 is a superb series by Alan Moore that he himself admits is based on the kind of Police Procedural like Hill Street Blues. BUT everyone in the city is a Superhero and from there things get really interesting. David Simon is responible for the Wire which is Genius AND Homicide Life on the Streets. If anyone could take the Police Procedural and give it a new slant is is him. (he did say he'd rather "eat his gun" than do a run of the mill Police Procedural now.) However I was only half serious as anyone who has read Top 10 will know that it's simply too strange for anything approaching the mainstream and simply could not be done with current technology. Yes, perhaps they could make an animation of sorts but really it ain't gonna happen. It was just a shout out that Simon and Moore, two seemingly completely disparate people, had something in common. And what is the hysteria because he doesn't like another comic ? Isn't he ALLOWED not to like other comics ? Whatever, I quite enjoyed some of 300 but at no point did I take it particularly seriously.
Thunderbolt Ross, it's true. by rbatty024	Jul 19th, 2008 05:10:28 PM
Or at least I read it somewhere. I wish I could remember the source. But anyway, by the mid-twentieth century superheroes were on their way out. Kids wanted horror and crime comics. Just when more violent genres were becoming popular the government stepped in to protect us from ourselves. Supposedly, it's why superheroes are more popular in U.S. comics than in the rest of the world.
I love Alan Moore to death... by Jarados	Jul 19th, 2008 05:24:51 PM
...but honestly, I think HE'S a little "overwhelming and creepy."
Funkateer by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 06:31:42 PM
Come on, everyone knows the Watchmen are VERY thinly-disguised versions of the Charleston characters. The point is if you're touting his glory days as a result of creating original characters, that wasn't the case. I think Moore is great but making up new characters is not why.
rbatty by Thunderbolt Ross	Jul 19th, 2008 06:36:16 PM
The Code certainly changed things to a degree, but I don't think wall-to-wall superheroes were the result. There were loads of innocuous enough comics that had nothing to do with superheroes and they just fell out of favor. I guess it probably put the kibosh on horror comics for a while though. I don't know; just look at wikipedia or some shit.
Thunderbolt Ross by Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 07:36:58 PM
My point is that while Moore is a very good writer he is far from the best and a total crackpot and general asshole in the press. Fanboys like to idolize him based on the great work he did 20 years ago while ignoring the subpar work he's done in more recent years. You all mention his ABC work which was hit or miss for me but I don't see anyone mentioning his work with Rob Liefeld or his crappy Avatar work.
infinite_probability: Watchmen & Lost by stabbim	Jul 19th, 2008 07:50:39 PM
Damon Lindelof is famously quoted as saying he considers Watchmen "the greatest piece of popular fiction ever produced," and I think there's a definite influence at work on the show. The similarities are not so much in the actual story (though I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Dharma Initiative's ultimate objective is eerily similar to Veidt's) but in the way the story is told: the flashbacks, the interconnected characters, the elastic relationship with time, the pop-culture and literary references, etc. It's a style thing.
Funketeer...you call him a hypocrite by bacci40	Jul 19th, 2008 08:04:39 PM
yet this man turned over movie rights checks to his artists rather than soil himself with what he saw as blood money...have you read anything he has done recently? i have...while not earth shattering, its still good...its funny how writers in all mediums still regard him as a genius, but you and a few other haters wish to dengrate his work...thats fine, you have a right to your opinion...but you better get your facts straight on how dc and wildstorm fucked him over...i am so sick of people on these boards sticking up for the suits, after years of these fucks screwing over the creative talent
"Alan Moore still knows the score" by MonkeyAngst	Jul 19th, 2008 08:32:38 PM
Nice. Someone remembers Pop Will Eat Itself.
I'm an Alan Moore Fan by Funketeer	Jul 19th, 2008 09:07:38 PM
I just don't drool over every little piece of crap he puts out because his name is attached to it and I don't excuse his hypocritical behavior because I'm some inbred fanboy who doesn't do well in social circles. How much money do you think he turned over to Gibbons and Lloyd for a property he doesn't own? And then when Lloyd and Gibbons participate in the creative process behind the movies, and Moore goes on and on pissing all over those movies, then yes, that's hypocritical. DC and Wildstorm didn't fuck him in any way. Wildstorm was bought out by DC. Jim Lee and the powers that be at WS made every effort to insulate Moore from anyone at DC. He never had any contact with anyone working for DC. Having a few panels of his work changed hardly constitutes being fucked over. Jack Kirby was fucked over. Bill Finger was fucked over. Alan Moore made a name for himself working with the toys that belonged to DC and then acted like a spoiled brat when he didn't agree with some of the things they were doing. No one is sticking up for the suits. Moore made some bad business choices and rather than point the finger at himself, he blames DC and Marvel for all that is wrong with comics.
Two things can be equally true. by claytron5000	Jul 19th, 2008 09:09:07 PM
Alan Moore: 1.) Genius 2.) Douchebag
"WATCHMAN! We love you all!" by BurnHollywood	Jul 19th, 2008 09:19:30 PM
Fuck yeah, MonkeyAngst...PWEI rules.
Moore hated V for Vendetta's adaption by v1cious	Jul 19th, 2008 11:00:12 PM
so his word can't be trusted.
I agree with Alan Moore on "300." by Evangelion217	Jul 20th, 2008 01:29:47 AM
It was all of that, and more. And it doesn't hold up with repeated viewings. Sure, it looks nice, and I love Gerald Butler's performance. But overall, it's just another dumb blockbuster. No different from you're average Michael Bay flick. My rating is a 5/10. And with that being said, I'm still looking forward to the film. Especially after seeing that teaser tonight. Talk about "potential." P.S: I wish Christopher Nolan was the director for the "Watchmen." Because what he's done with "The Dark Knight", is the stuff of legend. It is a pure masterpiece. :)
Scumcock....you are a stupid fuck by bacci40	Jul 20th, 2008 02:41:20 AM
moores work has had an impact on tv and movies...go ask the creators of lost, the incredibles and heroes....you are stupid, stupid, stupid
Evangelion217...then your argument is with miller by bacci40	Jul 20th, 2008 02:45:03 AM
for all zack did was throw the pages of the book onto the screen, almost verbatim...and im glad that nolan isnt the director, for he would have decided that he could do better than moore...at least zack doesnt think he is a better artist than moore...nolan has changed the bat into his own creation...which is fine, cuz its been done time and again over the years by different people...but watchmen must stand as its own work
WhinyNegativeBitch...millers take on daredevil is brilliant by bacci40	Jul 20th, 2008 02:48:17 AM
as is sin city, and his martha washington stuff...he lost it on his sequel to dk and i hear that his recent work isnt really up to snuff...but he is far from a hack...and 300 is what it is...his take on what the 50s movie of the 300 shouldve looked like...
Funketeer,,,you havent got a fucking clue by bacci40	Jul 20th, 2008 02:55:20 AM
think that moore wouldve signed with wildstorm if he knew that a sale was brewing? think maybe lee used moore as a selling point??? as for his being insulated...that lasted one issue...the fucks at dc started censoring league from the get go...and it wasnt just a few panels...and yes, i put him up there with finger, kirby and gerber as those who got really fucked over by the suits...think that finger, kirby and gerber didnt make bad biz choices too? so moore is trying to drum up publicity for lost girls..so he will do an interview with a magazine owned by warner to do it...crucify him...he still isnt a hypocrite
Funketeer,,,you havent got a fucking clue by bacci40	Jul 20th, 2008 02:55:22 AM
think that moore wouldve signed with wildstorm if he knew that a sale was brewing? think maybe lee used moore as a selling point??? as for his being insulated...that lasted one issue...the fucks at dc started censoring league from the get go...and it wasnt just a few panels...and yes, i put him up there with finger, kirby and gerber as those who got really fucked over by the suits...think that finger, kirby and gerber didnt make bad biz choices too? so moore is trying to drum up publicity for lost girls..so he will do an interview with a magazine owned by warner to do it...crucify him...he still isnt a hypocrite
THe Wire has a massive fanbase in the UK and Ireland by elab49	Jul 20th, 2008 03:36:35 AM
Series 5 has been all over the place on mainstream TV and newspapers even though it is only being shown on an obscure non-free digital channel that has managed to buy up this, Dexter and a few other excellent US shows under the noses of idiotic terrestrial channels that are living to regret it. And as they won't buy terrestrial only rights now they have their own satellite channels people will never get to see the shows unless they pay. But as I've been getting the DVDs since discovering it season 2 - and I'm far from the only one - then lone discoverer up there should try opening his eyes.
He's not a crazy spiteful old man you fucking Idiots by Nabster	Jul 20th, 2008 07:02:27 AM
His properties have been bastardized by hollywood time and again. They have made a few half assed atempts to include him in the creative process, merely so that they can say Alan Moore gave the creative go ahead. But they have shown him nothing but disrespect. He simply has a different view on creativtiy, he doesn't believe in programming to the lowest common denominotor all in the never ending quest for profits. Alan Moore along with Warren Ellis are the two consistently best comics writers, Frank Miller withered long before Moore. I find all of Moores gripes legitimate, especially the ones on Hollywood.
Love Moore's books but he is always a dick by Stormwatcher	Jul 20th, 2008 07:04:08 AM
Sorry but saying he's nice if you talk about poetry and UK to him is PANDERING. He's amazing, great, and a asshole.
Whats all this bullshit about 300? Greek Theater? 50s take on by Nabster	Jul 20th, 2008 07:05:29 AM
This is all bs, its a comic book war movie, I suppose the first one. Thats all, a fairly stupid film, but than again this is the aim for most summer tent pole films, stupid films have mass appeal.
ws is right by stvnhthr	Jul 20th, 2008 09:04:55 AM
ws was correct in the major difference between Moore and MIller. Moore is a post-modernist and Miller is a Romantic. Miller and Moore both write great comic books. Miller is a nice enough gent from the little I've interacted with him. Moore...writes great comics.
Moores talkingout his arse!... by Rameses	Jul 20th, 2008 10:03:35 AM
He's worse than any AICN talkbacker , with his wide ranging{but mostly damning} opinions on films he's not actually seen.ither he needs to acually watch the movies before spouting off, or his reply should b along the lines of * I can' really say much about that becase I've never seen it!*And a for 300 being homophobe , one line about boy loving doesn't seem too extreme.Perhaps king leonardo's doesn't like paedos but is fin with a bit of man love!If anything 300 comes across as one of the most pro homoerotic films evermade.
bacci40, you're welcome to borrow my clue if you'd ever like to by Funketeer	Jul 20th, 2008 10:29:24 AM
How about some details instead of random speculation boy? The changes made to Moore's work were a fake ad that referenced, and some say took a swipe at, Marvel Comics and another story that was canned because DC didn't want to publish it as is their right to do as a publisher. Welcome to the real work where you don't always get to do everything you want the way you want to. Would Moore have signed with WS if he knew they were going to sell out to DC? No. Does that mean Jim Lee knew that deal was going down when he signed Moore? No it doesn't. Does that mean Jim Lee used Moore to help entice DC? No it does not. But you keep painting that picture in your mind as you wipe the drool off your copy of Lost Girls and think about what a wonderful stand up guy he is. In the meantime, I hope JM Barrie, Ralph Ellison, Bram Stoker, and Robert Louis Stevenson all come back to life and start bitching about what Moore has done to their creations.
Moore is a typical boomer idiot by brobdingnag	Jul 20th, 2008 10:49:38 AM
Anything he doesn't like is racist or some other -ist. Stick to writing Alan because every time you open your mouth you remind everyone that's all you're fit for.
"Those philosophers and boy-lovers" by mraig	Jul 20th, 2008 11:57:24 AM
You can quibble back and forth about whether this line is hypocritical or homophobic or whatever, but the dumbest thing about it is that it's completely anachronistic. The Battle of Thermopylae took place in 480 BC. At that time, there were no philosophers in Athens at all; Socrates wouldn't even be BORN for another 10 years, Plato for another 50. At the time, the centers of Greek philosophy were Ionia (what is now Turkey) and Sicily/southern Italy (home to many Greek colonies). I believe (I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's really impossible to know these things for sure anyway based on the surviving evidence) that the Athenian days of man-boy love were also fifty to a hundred years in the future--what we hear of this is more from the late fifth and fourth century BC. 300 (in addition to being pretty stupid, if thoroughly entertaining) falls victim to that fallacy of believing that the past all happened at the same time. For Leonidas to say that the Athenians are "philosophers an boy lovers" would be like making a movie about the Revolutionary War where King George called the Americans "a bunch of railroad tycoons and oilmen".
mraig by Funketeer	Jul 20th, 2008 12:03:50 PM
Oooh that's a good line. I'm going to put that in the King George script I'm working on.
Funketeer, you jackass by The Octagoner	Jul 20th, 2008 01:22:31 PM
Are you calling 'American Cop TV' an archetype? And Moore's Top Ten isn't 'original work' because it's structured in the same way as some police television shows? I think you need to learn a little bit more about comics. Also, the definition of 'original'. You don't consider Moore's ABC work original work because many of the concepts had analogues in other concepts? Are you batshit? Newsflash: Miller's Batman? That was based on Batman. Miller's Sin City? That was based on every cheap Mickey Spillane book. Watchmen? That was based on the Charlton Heroes. The stories Moore told in Watchmen, however, had jack-shit to do with other people's work, and took only the concepts as a jumping off point. Same thing for ABC. And even saying that-- yes, the characters ARE original, too. If you want, you can trace every hero's lineage back to ancient mythology and epic poetry. You realize Doc Savage was predated by a novel called 'Gladiator', whose main character was a lot like DS? And they were both predated by Gilgamesh? So do you consider Doc Savage original? Goddamn, I just can't get over what a stupid thing that was to say. I didn't notice your comment yesterday, or I'd have said something then. I mean, you call Watchmen and V original, but not his ABC work? V for Vendetta had many, many analogues in heroic literature. By your definition, original work can't really exist because every concept does have a precedent in another concept. Going by your own criteria, there really is nothing original about ANY character or concept, EVER. Leaving only the stories TOLD using those concepts to have the chance at possessing originality. And in that case, Moore tells original stories with original characters, and Miller's never told an original story, because they're all cribbed versions of pulp crime novels from the 50s and Japanese comics.
Perhaps that was unnecessary by The Octagoner	Jul 20th, 2008 01:25:26 PM
Scrolling through the talkback, I see several other posters have already handed you your ass. Which sits atop your neck.
This reminds me of the South Park vs. Family Guy fued. by fiester	Jul 20th, 2008 01:50:37 PM
Basically the same thing.
Moore thought 300 was racist because it was by Nabster	Jul 20th, 2008 03:34:02 PM
it vilified and stereotyped a race of people. I don't really care, its just a story but, but you can't fault Moore for making a valid critique.
Athenians were boylovers by Dijjot	Jul 20th, 2008 05:44:27 PM
it was the in thing. And Moore's written drivel too, something about Snow White getting gang banged. It was surprisingly dull, for being pornography.
Thin line between heaven and here by proper	Jul 20th, 2008 09:06:34 PM
As I remember Alan Moore told P.W.E.I. he would sue them if they ever mentioned his name again,the goth crew I worked with at the time couldn't believe it lol.As for The Wire,I've been watching it weekly on the FX channel since last summer and I have enjoyed it all the way,too many great moments to mention.I don't watch a lot of normal TV so I'm not cop show'ed out like some but for me after the 5th series is done,I think I can go away knowing I've seen the best and leave it there for a good while.I saw an interview with the creator of The Wire on the "Culture show" last week,what a patronising set up for a chat that was,that could of been done a lot better,sometimes that presenter doesn't know when to leave her sarkiness at home and realise who shes talking to...As for 300,I enjoyed the film and some of the scenes were directly from the comic so I've no complaints,I didn't think it was a film worthy of the kind of critque some have given it,it was a straight up war film for me,in,watch,film done.. (the Krump tune that sampled the film was ok too),also I didn't recognise McNulty in it till I saw it on TV a year later so there you go(He's English too,is that a major crime in America http://tinyurl.com/6ryfqv ).Alan Moore = Greatest Grumpy old man of the 21st century so far.
The Octagoner by The Funketeer	Jul 20th, 2008 11:42:00 PM
Get a grip dude. It's not like I hate your favorite band (although I probably do). I just think the guy is a talented tool. I like reading his work but think he's not deserving of the amount of drool Herc leaves on his manhood every time Moore crawls out of the woodwork to bitch and moan. It probably wouldn't bother me that he stopped truly creating a long time ago if he didn't bitch so much about other people playing with his "creations" whenever someone made a movie based on his properties. V For Vendetta (the movie) kicked ass and he should be proud of it or at least have enough tact to shut up and let Lloyd bask in the glory a little since he had just as much to do with the original series as Moore did. Miller's also done more than Batman and Sin City in the past 20 years. Maybe you didn't read it all but then, like Moore, not reading/seeing the material doesn't seem to mean you can't criticize it.
does anyone ACTUALLY KNOW what homophobic means? by the power of GREYSKULL	Jul 21st, 2008 08:33:20 AM
let me paint you a picture. You and I are good friends - have been for years - and then one day I tell you I'm gay. If that makes you uncomfortable, you're not homophobic. If you curl up into a foetal position or something - sorry, tho seek help! If you start to worry that maybe I might check out your arse or want to take things "to the next level" - BINGO! Homophobic.
forgot to mention! by the power of GREYSKULL	Jul 21st, 2008 08:35:54 AM
I wonder what Moore thought of that scene in season 2 of The Wire- McNulty: Lay off the Greeks - they invented Civilisation! Bunk: Yeah - ass-fucking, too...
As far as artists go... by infinite_probability	Jul 21st, 2008 09:02:29 AM
... and especially considering how much smoke geeks blow up his arse, Alan Moore seems like a pretty okay bloke with perfectly understandable views (although admittedly I neither know or care about the detail of his spats within the comic book world). He's nowhere near Harlan Ellison levels of doucheness (although what I will say about Ellison is that for my tastes he appears to be the more interesting writer) and he's absolutely spot on in his misgivings about a "Watchmen" movie, IMO. I'm not a graphic novel fan generally but I have read the "Watchmen" mainly because a) I knew that a movie was on the cards and b) because it is seen as one of the "most celebrated graphic novels of all time". My feeling is that a lot of it's greatness resides in the way it deconstructs comic books themselves meaning that to fully appreciate it you have to be firstly, experiencing it in comic book form and secondly, very familiar with comic book history. I've read other people say that now is the perfect time to make a "Watchman" movie because there are so many comic book films around at the moment that a postmodern take will be appreciated. The only problem with this, from the point of view of myself, as a layman, is that only one character in the "Watchmen" is actually a superhero as I understand it (and as protagonists are in the current crop of superhero movies with Batman the notable exception). Perhaps it just went over my head in other ways but I was really struggling to care as I read the graphic novel precisely for this reason, for me there wasn't like an "Aha!" moment in seeing the Crimebusters (?) portrayed as sad, fallible vigilantes since, to me, only Dr. Manhattan ever qualified as a 'superhero' in the first place. And okay, "Batman Begins" did pretty well (and "The Dark Knight" has done even better) but my guess is that, generally, most people's interest in non-superpowered superheroes hovers somewhere around zero. I think that the trailer, dope as it is, fudges the issue (it seems to imply that Niteowl II(?), the Silk Spectre II(?) and Rorshach are superhuman) and that this only going to hurt the movie in the long run. Also based on "V for Vendetta" (which I think was appreciated by fans of the comicbook but not many other people?) this story should have been updated to properly to reflect a post-Cold War world. "V…" gives off a kind of dated, bolshy, Rik-The-Student vibe that makes me hard to take it seriously as a piece of political commentary. It’s somehow as adolescent, in it’s own way, as Frank Miller adaptations appear to be…
Miller by Saxster	Jul 21st, 2008 11:51:41 AM
Wow, some off-handed insults to Miller with those comments about '300'. Moore, I respect your writing skills man, but your politics and outlook on the "Big Picture" of life are a bit skewed. You need to reign in the ego a tad and open up your eyes to the real problems this world faces in all its spectrums, not just a few, because those you concentrate on you don't always get right. I will not elucidate.
Moore by GeneralBulldog54	Jul 24th, 2008 10:43:57 AM
I never knew that Moore would receive such hate. I read League, KJ, Watchmen, V and found them to be extrordinary works that pretty much challenged the ideas of heroes, villains and politics. His characters have layers more so than the Miller work I've read which is Sin City's Book 1,2,3, and 4. Miller is more about the environment and its effect on its characters but his writing is like that of a pulp novel while Moore has a more trained style of writing is focused and nu

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